Oops … I Guess Nelson Mandela Really Was a Communist After All

This story doesn’t surprise me at all. I never really followed the issue all that closely, but I never doubted he was a Communist because the ANC was clearly Communist. The self-interested denial of the person at the center of the scandal is virtually meaningless. Remember Bill Clinton “I did not have sexual relations with that woman…”? The reason a denial is virtually meaningless is because there is virtually a 100% chance that a denial is coming whether the allegation is true or not. Therefore, the denial doesn’t help you discriminate, although I suppose there are more and less credible denials. Remember someone hacked Anthony Weiner’s Twitter? Remember Herman Cain’s staff didn’t know anything about any sexual harassment settlements?

The reason I bring this up is that it illustrates a phenomenon I have observed and lamented. This story has passed with little more than a whimper. Had this come to light in the middle of Mandela’s trial, it would have been earth shaking. Now, no one cares. So I guess it does pay to deny deny deny and pray the storm passes, because at a later date no one will care.

I can’t help but relate this to the “birther” issue. It will absolutely not shock me in the least if 20 years from now we learn that “Oh yeah, Obama really did attend Occidental College labeled as an Indonesian citizen” or whatever and the response will be “Whatever.” But had the information come out in 2010, there would have been outrage. This is why I could never understand and was so frustrated by people (Patroon, Kirt, etc.) who seemed perfectly OK with the deliberate incuriosity of the press and certain segments of the punditry. If we don’t figure this stuff out now when it matters, it won’t matter when we do.

And just to demonstrate that I am consistent with regards to how I think people should view allegations, here is what I had to say about the allegations made against Nikki Haley.

delicious | digg | reddit | facebook | technorati | stumbleupon | chatintamil

15 thoughts on “Oops … I Guess Nelson Mandela Really Was a Communist After All

  1. Kirt Higdon

    Red, I think I more or less said whatever a year or more ago with respect to Obama attending Occidental College by claiming (or not) to be an Indonesian citizen. That’s about as relevant as the burning issue of whether or not Bush used cocaine when he was in college. I’ve never doubted that Mandela was a communist of one sort or another. But so was Putin and I kind of like Putin.

    As far as the great Nikki Haley adultery question is concerned, thanks for your re-posting of that theme since all of my wise comments on the “issue” are included.

  2. RedPhillips Post author

    My understanding of the law is that Obama, as a minor, could not have lost his US citizenship based on the actions of his parents or a foreign government, but he could have acquired a second citizenship. Whether this would disqualify him from natural born citizenship status based on the original intent of the Constitution is debatable, but no originalist conservative (a redundancy) should think it irrelevant. But if he claimed foreign citizenship in order to gain an admission advantage (it is disputed if it would have) or a scholarship or whatever, then to say that isn’t relevant just boggles my mind. This is an entirely different category of issue than past cocaine use.

    Do you deny my assertion that a denial in such circumstances is virtually worthless with regards to the truth of the claim?

  3. Kirt Higdon

    Well, yeah, if he denied claiming to be an Indonesian citizen I wouldn’t take his word for that. I just wouldn’t care. He’s a politician, Rod. Lying is his native language. So what if he lied long ago; he lies every day. College cocaine use by Bush may be equally irrelevant in itself, but like Obama’s college marijuana use, it speaks to the hypocrisy of those who ruin the lives of millions by sending them to prison for crimes they got by with.

  4. Sean Scallon

    “This is why I could never understand and was so frustrated by people (Patroon, Kirt, etc.) who seemed perfectly OK with the deliberate incuriosity of the press and certain segments of the punditry. If we don’t figure this stuff out now when it matters, it won’t matter when we do.”

    Because I used simple logic to keep myself from wasting my time on the matter. If there were problems with his birth record or falsehoods, Republicans, who controlled Hawaii at that time and controlled the access to those records, would have made it a big issue. Hilary Clinton would have made it an issue and so would have John McCain. So why didn’t they when they had the chance to in 2008? Hmmm? Just because a bunch of nobodies who can’t deal with the fact they were asleep that year and woke up and found themselves a President who they know would have never have been elected President even so much as four years before then, started running around screaming “He’s not a citizen!” after he took the oath of office doesn’t make me incline to believe them when those who did have the power to make something of this question declined to do so, probably because there wasn’t anything to it.

    So what the “birthers” are, in reality, are the same people looking to use this apparent question of his citizenship status to make money, just like they did during the Clinton era. I had my fill of it then and given the fact I’ve made my stand against Conservative INC., I certainly not going to give my attention to them now, If it turns out 30 years down the road I’m wrong, I’ll admit it. But I think they should first find the murderers of Vincent Foster and Ron Brown first, before becoming back to the birth certificate issue.

  5. RedPhillips Post author

    First of all, rumor has it that the birther story did originate with Hillary’s campaign, but it seems like it was dropped because it was too hot a potato.

    The Hawaii issue is clearly one that has to be factored in, although I don’t think it is definitive. The Republican Gov of Hawaii was certainly not a raging right winger. Her interest seemed to be in defending the integrity of Hawaii and the conventional wisdom. Hawaii even passed laws deliberately trying to restrict access to original records. I don’t think everyone who passed those laws knew something was amiss and was trying to protect Obama. I suspect they were interested in protecting the integrity of the state and at some point were just sick of it all and wanted the issue to go away. But no actual deception (there had to be some deception but it could have been in a not the whole truth sort of way) was required on the part of Hawaii until the long form release unless you believe that the short form was issued based on a non-existant long form. Some believe that, but others believe the long form existed but was just problematic. With the realease of the long form, then I do think you have to factor in some complicity on the part of at least a few Hawaiian officials. That is not an insurmountable problem, but it certainly is a factor to be weighed.

    But the birth stuff has always been only a part of the murky narrative. It has nothing to do with whether he became an Indonesian citizen, whether he wrote his book, whether he is a gross affirmative action case, whether he traveled to Pakistan on an Indonesian passport, whether his draft registration card is a fraud, etc.

    I want to know these things. I want them investigated by people whose interest is in finding the truth. As I said above, Obama’s self-interested assertion that his draft registration card is real (if he has ever even done anything more than blow off the question) is useless in determining whether or not it is real. (Officer: Son, did you rob the liquor store? Suspect: No officer, of course I didn’t rob the liquor store. Officer: Oh OK. You’re free to go then. Sorry for the inconvenience.)

    As far as Conservative Inc. is concerned, it isn’t true that Conservative Inc. widely embraced birtherism. Some of the “less respectable” elements exploited it, but a lot of Conservative Inc. was embarrassed by it and wanted it dropped and even wanted birthers purged. National Review, Erick Erickson, etc.

  6. Sean Scallon

    Ideology has nothing to do with it Red. Linda Lingle could have been a Marxist Anarchist and if there was any thought that there was information within Obama’s birth records that could have given the Republicans a partisan advantage, my God Karl Rove would have had it in no time at all. And it is because of this that dismissed the whole the issue.

    Gross affirmative action case? Maybe. So were Colin Powell and Clarence Thomas. Indonesian citizenship? Perhaps. I hear Michelle Bachmann has dual Swiss citizenship she tried to exercise and some neocons can claim Israeli citizenship. Draft registration card a fraud? As compared to Bill Clinton’s draft record or Dan Quayle’s when there actually was a draft for a war going on? Are you kidding me?

    You can know all these things but how will the knowledge enlighten you or change your views about Obama or for that matter anyone else’s. His partisans will still support his enemies will still hate him. It just like with Mandela. Did it matter if he was Communist? the South African government still locked him away for 26 years. It made him a symbol, a martyr whose affiliations, whatever they were, weren’t going to matter to the people who supported him because he was a prisoner. Thank God he didn’t govern like one when he got out and eventually came to power because of that symbolism.

  7. RedPhillips Post author

    If Obama’s people dummied up a fake draft registration card and passed it off as real because a real one didn’t exist, then that would be both a felony Federal offense and a HUGE scandal. Your kidding yourself if you think otherwise. But that isn’t really my point.

    Look at it this way. If I ask you “Is Obama’s draft registration card a fraud?” there is really only three ways to answer that question. 1.) Yes it is. 2.) No it isn’t. or 3.) I don’t know. I guess you could answer “I don’t care” or “It doesn’t matter” but those wouldn’t really be answers to the question. They would express your feelings or express an opinion, but they wouldn’t answer the question of whether the draft registration card is a fake.

    I submit that the only appropriate answer to the question, based on what we know, is 3.) I don’t know. No definitive evidence exists that it is a fake although there is some suggestive evidence. Pamela Geller, who is over the top on foreign policy, has done good work on this. But neither is there definitive evidence that it is real. If there is, such as a definitive forensic document evaluation, then I want to know about it. Anyone who asserts that it is real is doing so on faith and/or hope. On what basis would someone assert to definitively know it’s real? Because Team Obama said so? Essentially because it “has to be” real. The alternative is unthinkable. If it isn’t real then that would authenticate a conspiracy theory, would contradict the conventional wisdom, would potentially overturn the results of a popular election, would empower icky “racists,” etc. But this isn’t evidence. This is emotion.

    I am not OK with this. I want to know if it is real or not. I don’t claim not to have an emotional investment in this. I don’t like Obama, and I would love to see his Administration brought down, plus I would love to have the opportunity to do the world’s most obnoxious “I told you so” dance. But I do not and have never said that it must be true because I want it to be true. Because the outcome would be desirable if it were true. (Many birthers are guilty of this. They are default accepters in the same way that the skeptics are default deniers.) What baffles me is why you and Kirt are OK with a stance that essentially empowers the current Zeitgeist. Don’t you see how it empowers the Powers That Be to have a political culture where the party line is rigorously accepted and maintained and can only be questioned at risk of ridicule?

    So why aren’t CNN/NBC/ABC/the NYT etc. looking into the fake draft card allegation? This is not Obama was fathered by Aliens territory. And why are you OK that they aren’t.

  8. Kirt Higdon

    Back in my misspent college years, I used to alter draft cards for my friends so they could pass as older and buy booze and get into night clubs. A federal felony? I guess. Whatever. A huge scandal? If you say so, but it’s far from the worst thing I’ve ever done, even if you’re only counting things people know about.

  9. Sempronius

    Red, mate; there is only one way to deal with “Libruls”-especially their propaganda arm- and it ain’t very pretty.

    Christian conservatives will have to avert their eyes when the time comes. Viewer discretion is advised.

    In the meantime stock up on castor oil and I’ll do the rest….

  10. Sean Scallon

    I didn’t hear of the whole draft card incident until I read your comments Red but I take it it has something to do Obama’s college days since registering for the draft took place again starting in 1980 (a little too young for Vietnam). I assume there’s a statue of limitations for this, along with drug usage as well which even he admits to.

    What’s that that I smell? Another attempt at impeachment of someone we can’t beat at the ballot box. You know how well that one went? At least with Clinton there was an actual crime involved while he was President, lying to a grand jury. Can you do retro-active impeachments?

  11. RedPhillips Post author

    Kirt, doctoring draft cards so people can drink and dummying one up 30 yrs after the fact to prove you did when you didn’t are two entirely different things, and you know it. Stop playing dumb.

    Here is the gist of the issue as I understand it. There was some question as to whether or not Obama registered for the draft. I do not know the source or reason for the original question. Someone did a FOIA request for it but it was not forthcoming for about a year. Then suddenly one showed up. There were questions about its authenticity. Perhaps you might want to look up what those questions were for yourself, although I guess it is less work to just dismiss them out of hand. The fact that the SSA is headquartered in Chicago added to the speculation.

    There are a couple of lines of speculation I guess. That he registered late and had to dummy one up that showed he registered on time or that he never registered and had one dummied up so he could say he did.

    If true, the act itself happened in 2008 so it is recent. (He allegedly registered in ’80, but a possible mismatch in the numbers is one of the things that sparked the allegation that it is a fake.) But legality and impeachment are secondary issues. If someone on Obama’s team got someone in the SSA to mock up a fake draft registration card for him or gave the SSA a fake one to present as real, it would be game over. He would be forced to resign in disgrace before we ever got around to impeaching him. If not, if that is something people would just blow off, then this Country is even further gone than even I believe.

    If you don’t think the allegation is likely or worth investigating, that is one thing, but let’s not play dumb about the implications of what is being alleged.

    BTW, if Obama registered late or failed to register and just admitted that when he was running, then that would not necessarily have been a big deal except to those who were already inclined to dislike him. It would be the act of fraudulently creating documents that would doom him.

  12. Kirt Higdon

    Red, the country is much further gone than you believe and I’m sorry that I have to be the one to break it to you. On an almost daily basis Obama does far worse things than faking a draft card and he twice got a majority of the popular vote. BTW, in the case of a proven fake draft card, all BHO would have to say is that someone did it without his knowledge. His supporters would believe that and it might even be true. Any major politician has loyal aides who will do the necessary dirty work without a word to or from their leader and who will take the fall if necessary in return for some concealed but very valuable consideration. You really need to give up on this quest for the magic document (birth certificate, draft card, scholarship application, etc. etc.) which will doom Obama. We’re stuck with him for the next four years and after that we’ll likely be stuck with someone else as bad or worse.

  13. Sean Scallon

    You said someone on Obama’s team. The only way Obama would be impeached is if he personally ordered someone one his “team” to doctor up a phony SSA card. How are you going to prove this without a White House taping system? I’m afraid you’re going to have to better than that. Hell, the allegations being thrown around in regards to the Benghazi disaster were a lot more serious.

  14. AmericanEagle1392

    Mandela was the only communist I know who did not try to impose communism when he had the power to do so.

  15. Matt Weber

    “What’s that that I smell? Another attempt at impeachment of someone we can’t beat at the ballot box.”

    The right has so convinced themselves of being the “real Americans” that they can’t even countenance the idea that the left could win in a fair fight. If you want to hurt Obama, then just sit back and relax, cause Obamacare is doing all the work for you. If you really want to hurt the Democrats, then tell the Republicans to come up with a proactive agenda that can actually win people over.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>