Posted under Interventionism & Israel
According to the Israel-First, pro-war, any-war crowd, if you so much as question the Israeli Army’s use of American WMDs against the civilians in Gaza, you’re a goose-stepping Nazi who wants to exterminate all Jews. And the only moral, rational choice for the Israelis is to kill all Palestinians. Think I’m exaggerating? See for yourself.
Let’s not forget that all this is taking place in occupied Gaza, which is Egyptian territory illegally seized by Israel in the Six-Day War. UN demands that Israel return the captured territory are effectively blocked by the DC empire. So much for the myth of DC’s support for the “integrity” of UN resolutions.
This mindless support for a DC crony and blind malevolence against any who resist American hegemony can only be described as sado-patriotism. How else to describe rants like this:
There are the usual photos of fat Muslim ladies with their mouths wide open in faux horror as they pose for the news cameras, and dusty wreckage of some Palestinian shithole recently renovated by Israeli ordnance. There are never any pictures of dead Israelis, or Palestinian rockets, or mutilated bodies of kidnapped and murdered Israelis. Even Fox News contributes to this gross imbalance in news coverage.
That’s because even Fox can’t sanitize this lopsided slaughter. But the rant gets better. See if you’ve ever encountered an expression of such malignant delight in the suffering and death of innocents as this:
As for you, Palestinians, who rejoiced when your fellow barbarians murdered 3,000 Americans in 2001, I rejoice in the righteous destruction and long overdue payback for your evil, your barbarian savagery, your murderous and false religion. You have earned every bomb and every bullet, and since we don’t practice Islamic finance, there will be a great deal of interest due with every payment. Enjoy.
And check out this comment from the site linked above justifying the slaughter of innocent civilians as an extension of DC’s first war of liberation:
But as the Gazeans (term?) haven’t stood up to Hamas, neither did the Southern non-slave owners stand up for the rights of blacks. They did not “deserve” the ravages of the Federal Army, but neither were they completely innocent, either.
That’s what empire-worship comes down to — the glorification of power, and the sniggering delight of unleashing that power against the sub-humans who resist it. This was made clear in a thread Free Republic published in the early days of W the Great’s conquest of Iraq:
crazyhorse691 ~ “”My children are terrified every time they see an American now.”"
Redbob ~ Now, if only we could duplicate this result throughout the arab world…
Or as Bluelancer so eloquently put it:
“200 years from now, I want their children’s children’s children to cower and cringe in fear whenever they hear the sounds of jet engines overhead because their legends tell of fire from the sky.
I want them to hide in dark caves and holes in the earth, shivering with terror whenever they hear the roar of diesel engines because the tales of their ancestors talk about metal monsters crawling over the earth, spitting death and destruction.
I want their mothers to be able to admonish them with “If you don’t behave, the Pale Destroyers will come for you”, and that will be enough to reduce them to quivering obesience.I want the annihilation to be so complete that their mythology will tell them of the day of judgment when the stern gods from across the sea .. the powerful ‘Mericans .. destroyed their forefathers’ wickedness.”
Feel the pride.
Ivan on 30 Dec 2008 at 4:31 pm #
Modern ersatz Israel and Turkey are the beachheads for “secular humanism” (for lack of a better term) in the Mohammedan Middle East and Persia. These wars, as well as the very establishment of ersatz Israel are not crusades (something which I could support), but a “secularade”.
The first step towards the Restoration of Christendom is the Destruction of ersatz Israel.
Filmer on 30 Dec 2008 at 5:13 pm #
I think (perhaps I hope is more accurate) that Free Republic has been reduced to primarily outliers by its purges and self-selection. It is now made up of a lot of people whose primary issue is war, the WoT, Muslim hating, etc. who also toe the modern “conservative”/GOP line and us against them Democrat hating.
This kind of unseemly blood-lust, is increasingly rare in conservative internetdom, as far as I can tell. The War in Iraq has fallen off the radar screen and many seem to now implicitly admit it was a well intentioned failure. (Of course we disagree with the well intentioned part.) They may defend the invasion but it is half-hearted. The FR crowd are the bitter enders.
roho on 30 Dec 2008 at 5:16 pm #
Good Post HB2………… I recently viewed a 57 minute film that was most intresting. Obviously, it will never be shown on “60 Minutes” or any other major network, as it is filled with facts regarding the deplorable conditions that the Palestinians are living in. Like most of Americans, I assumed that the “Wall” being constructed by the Israelis was like the one that was a seperation between east and west Germany, or a long east to west style wall needed on our Mexican/American border?…………..Not at all!……It’s a “Maze” that twists, turns, incircles, and imprisons each Palestinian village as a dog breeder would create a kennel for raising dogs. In this maze is checkpoints controled by Israeli soldiers making it difficult for relatives to visit each other 100 meters away, but another wall to have to negotiate. I will try to post it but if it doesn’t work, it can be googled at “THE IRON WALL” directed by Mohammed Alatar.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8598031591119784930
RonL on 30 Dec 2008 at 6:20 pm #
HarrisonBergeron2,
You are entitled to you opinion but not your own facts. Gaza is not Israeli occupied Egyptian territory. Egypt siezed Gaza in 1948, but its annexation, like that of the West Bank into Jordan, was not recognized by anyone. This is analogous to Israel’s capture of West Jerusalem in 1948, which many internationalists still cannot accept, hence our embassy has not moved there.
In 1978, Egypt renounced any and all claims on Gaza, even through Israel offered it to Egypt along with the Sinai penninsula. This was formalized in the Camp David Accords of 1979. Hence in no possible way is Gaza, ” Israeli occupied Egyptian territory”.
These are indesputable facts, recognized by the UN, US, Israel, Arab states, “Palestinians”, and the rest of the international community.
Gaza is not occupied. It was handed over to the Palestinians, or do you not understand how Hamas runs it?
Although this is debatable, under the standards of international law applicable to everyone but Israel, Gaza was never even occupied territory. For territory to be occupied, it must have been sovereign territory of a foreign nation. Since Gazas annexation by Egypt was not recognized, it was not sovereign territory.
The last indisputable owner was the Mandate for the Creation of a Jewish State in Palestine administered (unfaithfully) by Great Britain.
RonL on 30 Dec 2008 at 6:24 pm #
Regarding the rhetoric on FR, “rmlew” has condemned the calls for indiscriminate retribution.
However, the death of 350, over 250 of which are Hamas members or fighters, is not “lopsided slaughter”, because it is not slaughter. It is the targetted killings of terrorists. If you think that th elopside nature of this is unfair, you are using the twisted logic of a Fannonite leftists, where the powerless non-white have pure virtue. For shame.
Filmer on 30 Dec 2008 at 6:43 pm #
Which thread did rmlew comment in?
HarrisonBergeron2 on 30 Dec 2008 at 6:49 pm #
RonL,
Israel not only defied UN Resolution 242 to withdraw, but still controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters. That’s how it was able to impose the inhuman blockade that was slowly starving the people there.
And yes, I consider the use of air power against helpless civilians — what’s the tally now, RonL, something like 3 Israeli dead compared to 360 Palestinians? — to be slaughter. At least 64 of the dead Gazans are women and children. There’s no accounting for the terror and suffering already inflicted — and I see in the news that Israel has just rejected a cease-fire. Yeah — Israel’s the victim here.
Click here to see how civilians are dying as a result of Israeli aggression, not just “terrorists.” And check out the picture of unarmed Palestinians cowering in a refugee camp as an Israeli warplane strafes them.
What does it say about us that we glory in this kind of industrialized bloodletting?
Filmer on 30 Dec 2008 at 7:23 pm #
The folks at FR seem to be glorying in this as a kind of back to the good ol’ days of unmitigated Muslim bashing and war cheerleading. Back before the time when the Iraq invasion was a failure and dissent within conservative ranks could be shouted down with a few cries of treason and sedition. Every other post seems to be about it. (I haven’t been to FR in months before today.) This adds to my suspicion that FR has become a bunch of outliers. Even if you think Israel is justified, these actions should be spoken of in somber terms with appropriate regard for human suffering. This sort of glorying in the suffering of others is sick. Ron, I hope you did convey that to them. These series of threads is just going to be more fodder for Lew Rockwell and other anti-conservatives to trot out as examples that conservatism as a whole (and as a concept) is inherently militaristic and jingoistic.
roho on 30 Dec 2008 at 7:23 pm #
Your right HB2……..Arial bombs are so much more efficient than bulldozers when you wish to aquire another 1000 acres. What confused me for awhile was the 2 different set of laws? Israel Firsters always quote the laws inside “Israel Proper” when justifying their actions in the “Occupied Territories”…….However, much of the old “British Occupational Law” is aplied to the present day occupied territories which is much like what U.S. Citizens would consider an EXTREME “Martial Law” from the 1940′s. This former Israeli Soldier explains: “Israel and Palestine: An insider’s perspective.”
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3486442791956431122
It’s all about increasing settlements, until the Palestinians give up and go away.
courtneyme109 on 30 Dec 2008 at 8:46 pm #
Yeah. What a shame. The world’s 1st freely elected suicide regime is getting hammered.
Time to post you tube vids of Americans dancing in the streets.
Before blaming Little Satan it may be best to take a REAL look at UN Sec Reso #242, it pretty much condenses into 2 deals for any “just and lasting peace in the Middle East.”
1st Little Satan should split the hood of embarrassing defeats for the Arab World – hard won turf sweetly acquired by desperate counter attacks that established Little Satan’s military prowess – essentially and specifically the 6 Day War real estate booty.
2nd – Arab states must accept Little Satan’s right to exist.
While Resolution 242 was kinda iffy about the extent of future Little Satan unassing territorial A.O. (areas of operation/occupation) withdrawals, the language on the 2nd part of the deal of a future Middle Eastern peace is quite sexplicit.
“termination of all claims of states of belligerency and
respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized borders free from threats or acts of force.”
And it may help to check out Pyramidlands hand in all this – starting wars of agression against a democratic member of the UN, losing them, then abandoning their own people in the Strip and cutting Peace deals with Little Satan.
If an estimated 750K Palestinians can crash the border last January to trek to Egypt to meet hot chicks, score ciggi puffs and snazzy new moto bikes, then surely Egypt can truck in humanitarian aid and evacuate innocent civilians.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/26/world/middleeast/26gaza.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin
HarrisonBergeron2 on 30 Dec 2008 at 11:02 pm #
courtneyme109,
I should’ve known the word “sado-patriotism” would smoke you out.
As much as I hate to spoil your fun, there are no white hats and black hats in the Muddled East.
However, the fact remains that Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any other nation, including Iraq under Saddam. Israel also illegally occupies its neighbors’ lands, including Syria, Lebanon, and the West Bank. It has nukes, lies about them, refuses to sign the NPT, and will not allow inspectors in, while ALL the Muslim nations have called for the region to be a nuke-free zone.
But I’m wasting my time. While facts like that would convince anyone else of Israel’s misdeeds, you’re probably more enamored than ever with them.
roho on 30 Dec 2008 at 11:12 pm #
Wow!……..Glad I don’t need a bulldozer to go to the grocery store.
I’m still trying to get over my greatgrandfather’s embracing the “Jim Crow” laws. If he had understood the “Zionist Rules Of Engagement”, we could have just imprisoned them and used napalm? {sic}.
Dylan Hales on 30 Dec 2008 at 11:36 pm #
Who cares about the UN?
The UN is a fraud that to some degree is responsible for this mess. Paleos ought not point to such a disgusting, globalist institution as the standard for international law or anything else of import.
Having said that what is occurring is typical of Israel and it would be nice if Americans could say we weren’t financing such inhuman nonsense. Let Israel sink or swim on its own terms. Otherwise it doesn’t deserve to exist.
Weaver on 31 Dec 2008 at 12:20 am #
Amen brother Hales!
Also, as outsiders we should be cautious of judging too harshly the events of another conflict.
When Mugabe was chosen to lead Rhodesia out of white domination, America cheered it on… right into crisis. Though the suffering of the blacks under Mugabe-rule is likely more numerous, whites were largely driven out – there was “reverse discrimination” under Mugabe.
And though it does appear that the Israelis are unfair to the Palestinians, should the Israelis allow the Palestinians the upper hand their people too could become victims of “reverse discrimination”.
I by no means see Palestinians or black Zimbabweans as subhuman, but surely these are the type of issues locals must settle on their own.
Weaver on 31 Dec 2008 at 12:23 am #
A rebuttal might be that America will be involved one way or another: that is that neutrality is not an option since Americans are so interested in Israel.
Assuming America must be involved then, a viable position then must be taken on the conflict. But, surely in the ideal we’d let the Middle East be.
roho on 31 Dec 2008 at 1:19 am #
Agreed Weaver!……………$3 Billion in taxpayer money to Israel each year, while our “Wall Streeters” tell us “It’s our money now and don’t ask what we do with it!”…….How much concrete am I purchasing to go into these “Ratmaze Walls”?……….Why did the Taliban manage to aquire “Stinger Missles” while the Russians were dominating them, to only become an enemy in less than a decade?
We should EXIT the midleast with our money, treasure, and influence! A nation with 300 NUKES does not need my tax dollars to continue it’s enslavement of 3rd world poverty citizens! $3 Billion a year will build a fine wall on our Southwest border without having to bomb Mexico’s children!
courtneyme109 on 31 Dec 2008 at 2:09 am #
Aw, ease up HBII.
Illegal occupation? LOL! Totally incorrect. That turf was won fair and square in a real war.
And it’s been super easy to get back. The fact that decades have gone by may actually mean those cats prefer a magical gripe against Little Satan (while retaining tons of Palestinians as non citizen resources) and an external enemy to blame for the regimes failures (Sharansky’s Case For Democracy) than actually getting their turf back.
UN Reso’s? Sure. Voted through by creepy blocs and leagues that rep intolerant, illegit, corrupt regimes that would never allow a vote at home, where owning a Bible or the dVd box set of “The Girls Next Door” or a Facebook account get ppl killed, thrown in jail or worse.
So the only democrazy in the entire ME is railled at by unfree regimes about suspect nukey weaponry? Yeah, that’s a real convincing argument.
No diss meant HBII – ya’ll have got to come up better reasons than those.
They are weak, embarrassing and easily laughed off.
You are correct though – it’s no use. Palestinian Sympathy Fatigue is rampant.
HarrisonBergeron2 on 31 Dec 2008 at 3:17 am #
Dylan Hales,
I quite agree about the UN. We only bring it up because W the Great — and his cheerleaders, such as courtneyme109 — justified the invasion of Iraq by saying the US was going to enforce the 16 UN resolutions Iraq had supposedly violated — though Israel has violated many more.
We just love skewering hypocrites.
Weaver on 31 Dec 2008 at 3:25 am #
Courtney,
why do you care so much for Israel? Because it’s a democracy and you’re a faithful believer in democracy?
Americaneocon on 31 Dec 2008 at 4:40 am #
Why don’t you care about Israel, Weaver? Western culture starts right there in Jerusalem, buddy.
Anyway, I noticed Mike “Snuggle Bear” Tuggle was too big a baby to actually post Stogie’s link to his quotes at my blog.
Stogie’s kicked Harrison’s butt so many times I’m sure it still hurts.
courtneyme109 on 31 Dec 2008 at 5:03 am #
Hi Weaver.
Just seems that tolerant, egalitarian societies with a penchant for periodic, transparent elections, free and uncensored press, a military under civie control, an independent judiciary under elected gov oversight, a nat’l treasury under public scrutiny that actively and energetically pursues academics, the arts, business, commerce, communications, industry, medicine, science, tech and space exploration are far better than slave trading, intolerant, corrupt, murderous unelected regimes with unfree media, internet police, religious police, dress code police, secret police, gender apartheid, honor killings, pitiful literacy rates, fiddle about with WMD possessing an amazing ability to torment their own people, their neighbors and sprout up rocket rich rejectionist militias in innocent civilian rich environs that tend to act out against any democracy in weapons range.
Nothing magical about Little Satan per se – anymore than if SoKo, Nippon, Taiwan, Kosovo, Georgia or Philippines were in the same sitch in a rough hood.
Perhaps it’s the very def of ‘America 1st’ to sympathize with sister democrazies.
courtneyme109 on 31 Dec 2008 at 5:15 am #
Hi Dylan,
HBII is incorrect, I’ve never used UN Reso’s to ‘justify’ knocking out the largest Arab army in history in 20 days.
The Manchester Ricin bust was reason enough!
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/16/ricin.alqaeda/index.html
Great Britain had wanted a 2nd UN Reso to go to war. Then magically changed her mind! Suddenly, Great Britain couldn’t wait to get into Iraq.
Why cause?
Because.
The Manchester Ricin Bust may have proved Sec Powell’s warning about Iraq’s 18 suitcases of ricin,
Perhaps one of them made it into Great Britain?
Weaver on 31 Dec 2008 at 5:15 am #
Americaneocon,
I’m not much of an online butt kicker, but wouldn’t Crusaders be apt to drive out all nonChristians, including Jews?
Whatever the case, I’m not a Crusader. Christianity will remain intact with or without Jerusalem. I wish the Coptic Christians well there, but I’m not looking to aid even them.
HarrisonBergeron2 on 31 Dec 2008 at 2:12 pm #
Americaneocon said, “Stogie’s kicked Harrison’s butt so many times I’m sure it still hurts.”
Riiight. And Saddam was about to enslave us all with his stockpile of WMD before W the Great saved us.
But “Snuggle Bear”? Really.
roho on 31 Dec 2008 at 2:49 pm #
Thomas Jefforson warned against foreign entanglements, and ofcourse America made great progress in economic growth and prosperity, while understanding that Napolean was Europe’s problem and not ours. And much of that voice and prosperity came from the South. Once the Northeasterners had silenced the South, it was off to War with any nation that refused to worship Democracy.
Just as the Russians found out that slaughtering 13th century Afghans was not so much fun once they had stinger missles, it is simply a matter of time before the Palestinians have stingers as well. World oppinion after 60 years of “Jewish Victimology” is becoming old and expensive for the World Economies. Even the “Amen Corner” voters in the South realized that the GOP gave them NOTHING for their votes and donations during 8 years of “Dubya”.(But more perpetual war.)…………Only conscription can now save this failed foreign policy, and it ain’t gonna happen.
The propaganda machine of MSM has run it’s course, and America’s youth now find the truth on the internet while simply looking at their parents in disbelief.
HarrisonBergeron2 on 31 Dec 2008 at 2:53 pm #
courtneyme109,
Look, it’s hard enough to decipher your idioglossia, but if you want to be taken seriously, please give a least a moment’s thought to your postings.
What in the name of Ernest T. Bass does an al Qaeda attack in London have to do with launching an illegal, self-destructive war against Iraq? To me, the London incident is just one more confirmation of the wrong-headedness of open borders, a policy enthusiastically pushed by W the Great as part of his globalist, Neocon agenda. Yet you support him and his policies. Why?
We’re waiting.
Americaneocon on 31 Dec 2008 at 3:04 pm #
“What in the name of Ernest T. Bass does an al Qaeda attack in London have to do with launching an illegal, self-destructive war against Iraq?”
It has everything to do with standing up for right and good, H.B.
Besides, it’s not “an illegal, self-destructive” war. You’ve lost that debate long ago, and you’re certainly an unpatriotic conservative, if not a full-blown leftist, for making the argument.
HarrisonBergeron2 on 31 Dec 2008 at 3:16 pm #
Americanenocon,
Watch it, bub. As a Southerner, I can invoke the respected name of Ernest T. Bass. As for you — well.
Anyway, I’d say tossing a trillion dollars of borrowed money and the lives of 4,200 young Americans into a sinkhole with the end result of Iran winning new influence in Iraq is a tad short of a glorious victory. As a matter of fact, I’d say that an American who tried to avoid such a disaster is the real patriot, and the one who lied us into it was the traitor.
Of course, it does depend on the definition of patriotism. To some, it means loyalty to one’s people and their heritage. To others, it means sitting at the keyboard howling in glee as helpless civilians in distant lands are crushed under the power of one’s armed forces, and the hell with the cost.
roho on 31 Dec 2008 at 4:02 pm #
Americanneocon…………………How would you describe the response of President Ronald Reagan to the 1983 Beirut Barracks Bombing as the “Single Deadliest Attack On Americans Overseas Since WWII”?….(241 Dead American Servicemen, mostly marines.)
Weaver on 31 Dec 2008 at 4:08 pm #
Americaneocon,
upon what basis do you define “right and good”?
Neoconservatism is very much a religion, but you surely don’t expect us to seek out morality in it?
Weaver on 31 Dec 2008 at 4:11 pm #
HarrisonBergeron2,
in defense of keyboard sitters: we all know the Fourth Estate is a powerful force, provided one puts in the effort to produce an influential article.
America would still be fairly traditional were it not for the Fourth Estate, among other forces.
Not to say my posts here do much, but this is ah in defense of keyboard sitting at its best
Weaver on 31 Dec 2008 at 4:18 pm #
Crusaders did drive out Jews.
So, there’s doesn’t appear to be an argument found in reality for siding with Israel.
If ever someone can produce a reason for supporting Israel, feel free to post it.
I’ll reply to Courtney shortly – out of time.
HarrisonBergeron2 on 31 Dec 2008 at 4:42 pm #
Weaver asked,
“Americaneocon,
upon what basis do you define ‘right and good’?”
Answer: It’s “right and good” if it extends what he worships — “American Power.” Not “American Liberty” or “American Culture,” but the application and expansion of the central government’s power. So if Muslim immigrants attempt an assault on their adopted Western country, then clearly, London and DC MUST shock and awe a random Muslim nation. It’s as if an IRA bombing prompted London and DC to invade Italy — after all, the IRA is Catholic, and the Pope does live in Rome, doesn’t he? Americaneocon would support such a war as right, good, and something to thump his chest about.
And as for my being a “leftist,” Americaneocon should recall the Trotskyite pedigree of his own ideology.
HarrisonBergeron2 on 31 Dec 2008 at 6:55 pm #
Weaver,
Oh, I’m not talking about the invaluable service you and I provide online promoting truth, justice, and the paleo way.
I was referring to the despicable laptop bombardiers who tapped out pro-war cheers on their computers, eager for OTHERS to shed blood in a war they could brag about “bravely” supporting, as well as the current practitioners of the perversion I call sado-patriotism.
Ernest on 31 Dec 2008 at 7:09 pm #
“tolerant, egalitarian societies”
That’s funny!
Bede on 31 Dec 2008 at 7:26 pm #
Israeli spies aren’t given any special consideration in the U.S. They are treated just like everyone else. See:
roho on 31 Dec 2008 at 8:47 pm #
Bede…….You have to understand “Super State Status”. Americans have what’s called “Single Citizenship State Status” from places like Georgia, Kansas, Mississippi, etc. But Israelis have the new and improved “Duel Citizenship Super State Status” because their “special”.{sic}……..Here’s some history on how they use their “specialness” in espionage:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/motherofallscandals.html
It’s a steeping stone to the President’s Cabinet.
http://lannybudd.blogspot.com/2004/12/dual-loyalties-wolfowitz-in-earlier.html
“Dual Loyalties: Wolfowitz in earlier AIPAC Spy Scandal”
courtneyme109 on 01 Jan 2009 at 5:53 pm #
Pretty weak dodge there HBII. Let’s return to this topic shall we? In a round about way, Weaver brings up a point that is quite interesting.
Actually – it is quite revealing. Note that whenever autocratic, despotic unfree (and often times unhinged) regimes attack democracies anywhere in the world, there the banner of HBII is unfurled. Not in defense of democracies – au contraire!
So, the quiz becomes – why is HBII and by loose asociation ‘Conservative Times’ and her sister site ‘Rebellion’ always on the uncool, unfree side?
What is so attractive to you whenever a official terrorist, freely elected suicide regime (that cannot bear to tolerate anything other than themselves) attack a free nation?
What is so cool about autocratic Russia blitzing tiny tiny Georgia?
Weaver on 01 Jan 2009 at 7:59 pm #
Courtney,
the Palestinians vote in a Democracy.
Israel has laws that would be considered discriminatory in the US, though as I said before they must decide how to run their own state – it’s their children who are endangered.
Ethiopian Jewish immigration into Israel has been limited, so there is “discrimination”. And Israel discriminates in favor of Jews immigrating in otherwise, which is another policy that would be considered “unfree” in the US.
It’s very odd that you defend Israel… It’s a fairly nationalistic state with a view of itself as a nation rather than a composite of individuals, which is good in my book, at least it could be said that Israel shares a closer ideology to my own (anti-global, pan-nationalism ideology).
The reason America favors Israel is essentially 1. Israel has a strong influence over US foreign policy, specifically those who favor the Likud Party. The US mass media is also strongly pro-Israel – Israeli news is much less pro-Israel. 2. Christian “Zionists” have come to believe they’re supposed to defend Israel and Jews as a religious commandment, which is heresy by any standard. 3. This neoconservative fairy tale of promoting democracy that hides various foreign policy objectives, certainly not all relating to Israel.
—
Regarding Democracy itself, I’m strongly opposed to mass democracy, especially one like ours that does not abide by its Constitution. It is one of the worst political systems guaranteed to elect silver tongued demagogues and to give power to the basest elements within a society who are not only prone to voting for handouts (that is to say – against national interest in favor of individual or class(e.g. auto workers)/ethnic (e.g. blacks voting for Obama) interest) but who have poor judgement and are easily manipulated, especially by a mass media and heavily lobbied political parties.
I dunno if there are any other Calvinists in here, but all Christians believe man is fallen.
Anyway, Calvinists point out that man is totally depraved without God’s grace. And since the majority of a population is depraved, democracy is by definition rule by the depraved… Ideally, God’s chosen (which has nothing to do with race or descent) would be in charge, which can also be said that those who are most virtuous within society should be in charge. The question neocons usually then ask me is: how could the best be chosen, but one only has to look to history for answers… I can go into my thoughts on how this could be done if anyone’s interested… And yea the British aristocracy did become corrupt – every society is threatened by corruption – but just as oligarchy would be the risk with that form of government, we already have somewhat of an oligarchy in the US today. No system is perfect, so it’s simply a question of which is best?
I’m not saying society is black and white between those who are chosen and those who are totally depraved, and I don’t even know if this is the Calvinist claim – I’m not a dogmatic Calvinist either way. Clearly there are shades of grey of virtue within a population.
—
That’s my personal view of mass democracy: it’s one of the worst forms of government. That said, no system is perfect, and were America to but return to its original system there would be tremendous improvement. America is far from its original system, even its democracy is very different now.
courtneyme109 on 01 Jan 2009 at 8:40 pm #
Hi Weaver – those reasons cited about Great Satan supporting Little Satan are incorrect.
If all were true as stated then Little Satan would stretch from the Nile to the Euphrates, Saudi Arabia would not have scored the biggest arms deal in history and Egypt and Pakistan wouldn’t be the largest recips of Great Satan’s aid (Yeah. Little Satan is like #3)
Look, in Little Satan you could open up a church, a strip club, a casino, a bookstore, a gay bar, a Hooters or the Ernest T Bass Baby Jesus Fanclub Summer Camp For Kids.
Over a million Arabs in Little Satan enjoy rights far away and above any found in the Arab League. Like voting, serving in the IDF and the Knesset or opening their own biz.
By comparison, in many Arab League lands it is illegal to be a citizen if one is jewish – or cool to be a citizen as long as they own no property, never pursue higher ed or do not entertain biz opportunities.
And Palestinians fare much worse in the Arab League. Kuwait ethnically cleansed themselves by expelling nearly 300K Palestinians. In Syria Palestinians are kept in restricted areas, denied citizen status, barred from certain sectors of the work force and denied higher ed.
So Little Satan is like Taiwan, SoKo or Nippon. We have way more in common with Little Satan than anything in the 22 members of the Arab League with corrupt royalty in Ray Bans, Supreme Leaders, Field Marshal Presidents for Life and Lions of Syria.
So again – why are self described conservatives loving every sec of unfree, illegit hideously horrific regimes attacking images of America abroad?
Weaver on 01 Jan 2009 at 8:45 pm #
What I mean by anti-global pan-nationalism* is an ideology that would allow very different nations to temporarily see common cause with opposing globalism in general – temporarily that is until a greater threat arises.
The purpose of any ideology should be to protect loved ones or something else that is loved – or to serve God. And that’s all I mean by this. Maybe it would be like Athens and Sparta fighting, assuming a Sparta ever arises to challenge neoconservatism.
Some other ideology might be better – pan-nationalism might undermine national pride by promoting a view that all nations are equally good rather than just temporarily working together to defeat a common foe. But as things stand now, pan-nationalism is what appeals to me as a potent force.
*I first read this proposed elsewhere – not an original idea.
courtneyme109 on 01 Jan 2009 at 8:54 pm #
Weaver – also meant to say thanks for engaging in enlightening debate. I appreciate that.
HarrisonBergeron2 on 02 Jan 2009 at 12:36 am #
courtrneyme109,
Of the 7 posts I have above, which one are you referring to as a “dodge”? (And look who’s talking — I’m still waiting for an explanation as to why invading Iraq is a rational response to an Al Qaeda attack in London.)
Your generalizations about us taking the “uncool” side in any of the world’s conflicts — presumably, “uncool” is whatever foreign boogeyman DC has designated as the Hitler of the month — make no sense. Why believe the government’s propaganda? If you really think DC takes the side of freedom, democracy, and human rights, consider what Ford and Kissinger did to the Christians of Indonesia.
If you want to focus on last summer’s altercation between Russia and Georgia (talk about changing the subject!), please get your facts straight. Georgia, apparently pumped up with NATO steroids, attacked little Ossetia, and Russia defended it. And Saakashvili is no Thomas Jefferson, either.
Bede on 02 Jan 2009 at 3:13 am #
I agree with Weaver.
I have nothing against Israel’s ethno-nationhood. In fact, I wish them the best. This is a traditional understanding of a ‘nation’ and to criticize Israel on these grounds is leftist cosmopolitanism.
However, I want Western countries to have the same privilege of ethno-nationhood. And, for it to be allowed to voice the truth: it is in no way in our interest to support Israel. Let Israel stand or fall on its own.
Weaver on 02 Jan 2009 at 11:01 am #
Courtney,
none of that is of any concern to me.
I do not wish to make over the world in America’s image. I wish for America to give up its empire and fix its own ever-growing problems.
The argument I would use in defense of Israel is: Jimmy Carter ruined Rhodesia, and Israel shouldn’t allow him to do the same to Israel, though of course defending Rhodesia is unacceptable in this day…
—
As for the freedom loving liberals you mention (you call them conservative but they do not qualify as such by any definition I’m aware of), they oppose every form of religiosity, tradition, and ethnicity.
They want free trade and free media to corrupt the rest of the world, and war is too terrible a thing for them to accept. They want very nearly the same objectives you do (objectives which are unobtainable btw), but they want it without war. Israeli nationalism fuels various Muslim nationalisms and encourages “reactionary” powers. And any religious battles between Muslims and Jews create similar “reactionary” religious results – e.g. those who are not devout believers are suspected of being traitors.
If people are to fight, globalists want them to fight over ideology. Religion and nationalism is again incompatible with globalism. These forces can’t be destroyed with war alone (unless the opposition is eliminated or occupied and reeducated), but they can be eroded away and replaced by rootless competitions over ideology, which is essentially a sort of weak religion.
Israel is not attempting to expand freedom as you believe; Israel wants to defend its people. Israeli nationalism, as with all other forms of nationalism, is a threat to globalism.
And liberalism is always seeking out the underdog – Israel is far superior in strength to the Palestinians who have to resort to suicide bombings to fight. Can you imagine resorting to such a tactic? That’s desperation, and liberals love underdogs. Liberals will not be content until Israel is fully multiethnic with no preferences and Jews and Palestinians living side by side in mixed neighborhoods, intermarrying, and without respect for their ancestors or religion.
Also, Ashkenazi Jews are very white, and the Palestinians look more Semitic. No liberal wants to defend a white group in any conflict with a less white group. Liberal history tells them repeatedly of whites oppressing nonwhites. This could be plainly seen in the Serbian conflict which Clinton presumably wrote off as a resurgence of Nazism… (though the Serbs were among the groups mass murdered by the Axis – the Serbs, like the Jews, were victims of the Axis powers).
Zimbabwe is again the perfect example: the whites were very tolerant and open with the blacks. They were more liberal than the blacks. But Britain and the US insisted the two merge (meaning black rule), and Mugabe was the result. Liberals want the same with Israel, and they will not rest until it is achieved.
Really, you could look to any European country. Whites are generally more tolerant and liberal, and yet minorities are always favored.
—
Since no one likes talking of whites, Japanese nationalism is disliked by white liberals as well. Any powerful nationalist force is opposed by these white liberals who dream of a world without religion or nationalism (which is unobtainable)- such is unobtainable because man creates these things (though of course God revealed truth to us as well through His son – but if Christ is forgotten, a pagan god will be created in his stead.) When a nationalist peg stands up, it must be hammered down. As the tallest are hammered down, the next tallest can be hammered, and so on.
There’s also need of a great power to fight against – that’s what fuels liberalism itself. And US foreign policy today appears most strongly influenced by Likud.
One silver lining about white liberals is what happened in South Africa: when the ANC came into power, many of the white Marxists lost their jobs and thus their influence. As the white liberals destroy themselves, they’ll cease having an impact on the world and will be replaced by nationalist and religious forces or perhaps other liberals. No one knows the future, but human nature isn’t changing.
Weaver on 02 Jan 2009 at 1:18 pm #
An article saved at AmRen tells the expected future of white liberals in America: Democracy? It Was Better Under Apartheid, Says Helen Suzman.
I just found this via a search, but it fits well.
Once the liberal goal is achieved, the result won’t be the paradise it’s thought to be. The result will be but the destruction they seek with nothing waiting for them once it’s accomplished.
Something else will just have to fill the void white liberals will leave, and the world will remain as it’s always been.
Weaver on 02 Jan 2009 at 6:25 pm #
Courtney,
my apologies if I was too wordy, and I didn’t mean to attack you.
It seems atm we’re pursuing different goals, but it’s just politics. A lot of good people fight for what they believe to be right, and there’s a lot of disagreement about what’s right.
So, the “other side” in any disagreement can have good people on it.
Maybe you see a way how Israel could be disliked by liberals now though.
courtneyme109 on 03 Jan 2009 at 12:14 am #
HBII the only dodge RE:me is the unhappy fact that HBII failed the dot connecting exercise previously presented.
Let’s review shall we?
Sec Powell @ UN briefs that Ba’athist Iraq has about 18 suitcases of ricin. Then ricin magically appears in Great
Britain at the same incredible instant Great Britain decided she really doesn’t need a 2nd UN Reso to help knock out the largest Arab army in history in 20 days
It could be said Iraq sealed her fate when that ricin appeared thus justifying – at least in appearance – granted – that the Vulcans
(Wolfowitz, Rice, Powell, Armitage, Cheney and Rumsfeld) were correct in advising certain regimes may indeed pass along WMD
to various ‘non state actors’
That’s what the Manchest Ricin bust means for regime changing Iraq
(This event should also be used to define the “when in doubt – knock ‘em out’ preventive pre emption doctrine. Essentially, it’s not on free nations to determine if an unfree regime is a threat or safe as milk. The burden for that is on the regimes themselves).
So, back on track, HBII – your theory of no white/black hats in the ‘Muddle East’ is suspect.
There is a very clear diff between Little Satan and any of her rowdy rocket rich rejectionist neighbors like HAMAS or Hiz’B'Allah. Yet whenever threats appear to free nations, HBII seems always there with wildly inaccurate rhetoric (like the very sorry fact free intro to this very essay), sympathy and support for unfree, uncool and
nigh unhinged enemies of his own nation and her sovereign allies.
This is significant. Mahdi Army, Taleban, Hiz B Allah, HAMAS, Sudan’s Janjaweed, Iran’s revolutionary Guards, – they are all precious, praised and prefered for and by HarrisonBergerson 2.
Perhaps this says way more about HBII than concepts of democracy, conservatism and humanitarian concerns.
In this particular instance, Little Satan vs HAMAS – what is so appealing to you about HAMAS? Why so jazzed for tribalistic suicide death cult oath breakers that practice horrific honor killings, use innocents as intelligent shielding and deliberately seek out civilian targets?
And may I be the 1st to wish sincere condolences on the loss of an appearent kindred spirit in the evil Dr Rayyid – HAMAS’ fiery rocketeer, suicide bomber fanboy and inventor of the ‘human shield’.
Hope it was slow and painful.
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7Yq6KZIGGwbWYV2rCr8sDPfT09JJfk1Si4RYItLZreBqI1a9UBVMOMlchh04motfpJGidgMe2%2bIFkNzDtMSrJW8APH1WOApepXMR2VgVN3BE%3d
courtneyme109 on 03 Jan 2009 at 12:18 am #
Hi Weaver. It’s cool – I can handle it. Though I must say the lib case against Little Satan (or any democrazy for that matter) is not very convincing.
I do admire their insistence on maintaining an argument they are not winning. I mean, seeking out underdogs is one thing – but creeps like HAMAS?
Seems awful pervy.
Weaver on 03 Jan 2009 at 6:19 am #
No more pervy than defending the KLA, ANC, or Mugabe
HarrisonBergeron2 on 03 Jan 2009 at 7:57 pm #
courtneyme109,
Let’s review your review, shall we?
It doesn’t even make sense at face value. You’re saying that because there was an alleged terror plot in Britain, the US had to toss 4000 American lives and over a trillion American dollars into the Iraqi sinkhole.
Pray tell, where are the dots? Just on the face of it, it sounds like the ravings of a lunatic. Had that been the reason for invading, why didn’t Bush and his gang simply say so? No one in the Bush regime has hinted that was the justification.
And it gets worse when we look at your details. You then wrote:
“Sec Powell @ UN briefs that Ba’athist Iraq has about 18 suitcases of ricin. Then ricin magically appears in Great Britain …”
No it didn’t. UK police found 22 castor oil beans, in north London. While those beans could have been processed to produce ricin gas, this was obviously not ricin the eeeevil Saddam somehow spirited to Britain. And the bottom line remains the same — Al Qaeda was supposedly behind the plot, not Iraq. Worse — all the defendants in the case were cleared of plotting to attempt murder.
You’d have to be a homicidal maniac like Cheney to propose such a flimsy excuse for starting a war.
courtneyme109 on 04 Jan 2009 at 1:08 am #
Totally incorrect HB2 – it is the very def of the preventive/pre emption war doctrine
“when in doubt – knock ‘em out”
As far as salemanship goes – nobody ever said the Vulcans were as good at retail as at regime changing.
Castor beans? Yeah right. And that creep killed a Scottland Yard Detective in a raid over magic beans.
Bodansky reveals a lot more about that ricin, Salman Pak, Iraq’s Unit 999, and several teams busted by Little Satan, Jordan and Turkey and a team of Chechins that managed to get away – ending up at that theatre in Mockba (Moscow) in his essential “Secret History of the Iraq War”
So far, none of it is online but I did xscribe certain bits at GsGf (w/ Dr B’s blessing).
http://greatsatansgirlfriend.blogspot.com/2008/03/casus-belli.html
Looking forward to your next essay on wicked Little Satan (supplied with high tech weaponry at wholesale prices by evil Great Satan America) blitzing into the Strip and annihilating huge bits of HAMAS, Ezeden al Qassam, Islamic Jihad and many of their intolerant death cult fanboys.
Feel free to quote me
“LoVe !t To dEaTh”
Especially excited about it in hopes of learning the reasons of your personal attachments and attractions – the things that deeply appeal to and inspire HB2 – from a collection of time traveling, girl fearing, murderous rocket rich rejectionists.
Dont leave me hanging, OK?
HarrisonBergeron2 on 04 Jan 2009 at 4:05 pm #
courtneyme109 said, “Totally incorrect HB2 – it is the very def of the preventive/pre emption war doctrine
“when in doubt – knock ‘em out”
Amazing. And frightening. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a display of willful detachment from reality. Forget evidence, ignore logic, and don’t even think about consequences — just obey the voices in your head urging you to kill before “they” kill you.
I hope you don’t own guns. Othewise, your neighbors would live in constant fear you’ll start blasting at them any minute to “pre-empt” the burglaries/home invasions/assaults you imagine they’re plotting.
HarrisonBergeron on 09 Jan 2009 at 1:22 pm #
What’s that sound from the Israel-First, pro-war, any war crowd?
Crickets.