December
27th 2009
Posted under Interventionism & Israel
This thread proves what I have been saying for a while. A lot of people are completely incapable of reasonable thought when it comes to the Israel/Palestine issue or ANY criticism of Israel.
Clarification: When I said “A lot of people are completely incapable of reasonable thought when it comes to the Israel/Palestine issue or ANY criticism of Israel” I was referring to the comments in the thread. I really don’t know enough about Carter’s criticisms to comment on them.
Weaver on 28 Dec 2009 at 3:27 am #
Shield of victimhood, sword of hypocrisy.
roho on 28 Dec 2009 at 1:32 pm #
Senility is not an option.
RonL on 28 Dec 2009 at 7:59 pm #
The problem is that Carter mixed legitimate criticism with outright lies.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1238
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=187&x_article=1760
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1775
Moreover, he took funding from some rather interesting sources.
But the fact is that this is not an apology for anything, but an act of subterfuge. His grandson is running for office and if the little Carter loses, it will be blamed on Jews and/or Christian Zionists. Jimmy Carter will resume his attacks on Israel. In the meantime the apology itself is so farcical that it can only be seen as a claim of need to bow before Zionist power, which is yet another attack. It is Carter who is playing Victim along with his friends in Hamas.
Of course for those who seem to love this leftist because of his attacks on Israel, all I have to saw is whence their allegience to the Palestinians. Seems to be what Washington (actually Hamilton) warned about.
RedPhillips on 28 Dec 2009 at 10:30 pm #
When I said “A lot of people are completely incapable of reasonable thought when it comes to the Israel/Palestine issue or ANY criticism of Israel” I was referring to the comments in the thread. I really don’t know enough about Carter’s criticisms to comment on them.
I tend to agree with Ron. Being opposed to the perceived disproportionate power of the “Israel lobby” does not necessitate default siding with the Palestinians. That is why I said in the comments below the post that the debate is dominated by inordinate passions on both sides and emphasized the need for official American neutrality.
Weaver on 28 Dec 2009 at 10:55 pm #
RonL writes:
Remove the American aid and trade deals that go there, and it mostly ceases to be of interest to me, though obviously I’d prefer a more humane interaction with the Palestinians as Israelis carry out their objectives. In small part, admittedly it’s natural to cheer for the victims in any conflict even if one acknowledges conflict is likely inevitable as matters are there. Also, cheering is brought on via “enemy of my enemy” since presently many pro-Israel supporters are also pro-left in America. Allying with Palestinians then wouldn’t be an entangling alliance if potent against thwarting attacks here in America. Temporary alliances are permissible, though I wouldn’t say I’m allied with Palestine…
However, many Americans view Israel as this wonderful ally of freedom and/or a religious object of worship. This too needs to be countered because it leads to tangible results in wars and aid.
Also, many who support Israel support opposite policies for America. Their hypocrisy needs to be pointed out.
Also, the Jewish status as a special minority in this country grants them certain powers of victimhood, and correspondingly the Gentile Europeans certain weaknesses as evil doers. So long as Jews continue to bash mine and me as somehow responsible for what went on in Germany, it sometimes becomes useful to respond with a bash on Israel. The shield of victimhood can shatter.
The result of the victimhood in the US is visible in the culture, legal system, and police activity. This shield of victimhood is also what allows Israel to act as no other state may act, without rebuke, even if again the conflicts are somewhat inevitable.
-
Criticising Israel though risks making nationalists and, err, anti-transients look bad. Ideally Israel would simply behave better. I certainly don’t want Israel to become the next NS Germany to scare little children into embracing individualistic / globalist ideologies… And there’s so much to consider in America that were the above issues dissipated I certainly wouldn’t have effort to waste on events in far off Palestine and Israel. Whether the remnant America meddles in Israel is determined by Israelis and their supporters, not Americans – not that the minuscule, almost-nonexistent American right is even a material threat. The great fear seems to be that someone will shout “Rumpelstiltskin”, and Israel will lose its shield…
Dave K on 29 Dec 2009 at 1:20 am #
RonL
This CAMERA outfit is hardly nonpartisan and devoted to the truth. Wikipedia has the low down on them on its site. Any organization devoted to the facts and history relating to Israel praised by Alan Dershowitz isn’t worth looking at.
RonL on 31 Dec 2009 at 9:38 am #
Dave K,
Of course Camera has a perspective as does Wikipedia, which is run by the anti-western left. Whose position are you taking again?
I happen to disagree with Camera for their liberalism. You seem to love others for taking a leftist position.
RonL on 31 Dec 2009 at 10:02 am #
Weaver writes:
“Remove the American aid and trade deals that go there, and it mostly ceases to be of interest to me, though obviously I’d prefer a more humane interaction with the Palestinians as Israelis carry out their objectives.”
Israel was quite humane from 1967 to 1986. It got them the Intefadah. The more Israel has given, the more terror it gets.
“In small part, admittedly it’s natural to cheer for the victims in any conflict even if one acknowledges conflict is likely inevitable as matters are there.”
A natural liberal impulse, shared by most Americans, historically.
“Also, cheering is brought on via “enemy of my enemy” since presently many pro-Israel supporters are also pro-left in America. Allying with Palestinians then wouldn’t be an entangling alliance if potent against thwarting attacks here in America. Temporary alliances are permissible, though I wouldn’t say I’m allied with Palestine…”
But you are forgeting that the international left, UN, communists, and most American progressives are anti-Israel. You are also at odds with the many more pro-Israeli conservatives. Doesn’t seem very conservative. It does seem like grievance politics. http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/012145.html
“However, many Americans view Israel as this wonderful ally of freedom and/or a religious object of worship. This too needs to be countered because it leads to tangible results in wars and aid.”
Is religious anti-Zionism any more legitimate? And which allies do you want held accountable for the real or percieved actions of their supporters or kin in the US?
“Also, many who support Israel support opposite policies for America. Their hypocrisy needs to be pointed out.”
Should you chide them for being inconsistantly liberal, or ask them to re-evaluate their psotions regarding western nationalisms and culture?
“Also, the Jewish status as a special minority in this country grants them certain powers of victimhood, and correspondingly the Gentile Europeans certain weaknesses as evil doers. So long as Jews continue to bash mine and me as somehow responsible for what went on in Germany, it sometimes becomes useful to respond with a bash on Israel. The shield of victimhood can shatter.”
So you would grant said rights to Palestinians abroad and Muslims in the US?
I shouldn’t chide you too harshly for grievance, since the self-appointed media loved Jewish leaders sell out real Jewish interests on the basis or their fealty to liberalism and multiculturalism. This has led to the court Jews of the left comparing Jews in anti-immigrant groups Nazis.
As if importing more of the Nazi’s favorite faith-group (Muslims) is in te interest of Jews.
“The result of the victimhood in the US is visible in the culture, legal system, and police activity. This shield of victimhood is also what allows Israel to act as no other state may act, without rebuke, even if again the conflicts are somewhat inevitable.”
Without rebuke? Do you not read newspapers? Israel gets more rebuke than Russia, China and India combined. Yet these have killed millions of Muslims.
“Criticising Israel though risks making nationalists and, err, anti-transients look bad. Ideally Israel would simply behave better.”
And ideally 1 billion people would not consider brigand pedophile and rapist who called for global conquest to be the perfect man and last prophet.
“The great fear seems to be that someone will shout “Rumpelstiltskin”, and Israel will lose its shield…”
Not of the left. Jews in America have a more serious fear, the death of another 5.2 million Jews. And they are joined by 10 times as many Christian Americans.