Posted under Political Correctness & Ron Paul
Ron Paul was one of five Republicans who voted to repeal “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.” I was a Ron Paul supporter before Ron Paul was cool, but that was a bad vote. There is no imperative to apply libertarian ideology to the military, an inherently very unlibertarian institution. The military discriminates in all kind of ways for the purpose of creating the most effective fighting force. It discriminates based on IQ (entrance tests), height, health, gender (certain fields), drug use, etc. There is no reason why it shouldn’t discriminate against homosexuals if they are felt to compromise the effectiveness of the force. I’m afraid this will hurt Paul if he runs for President again.
We should in fact repeal the Clinton era “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell,” which was as much PC as they could get away with at the time, and we should return to the prior arrangement where potential recruits were explicitly asked. The question was in there with all the other questions like “Have you ever used drugs?” and “Have you ever had asthma?” Homosexuality is either a threat to good order and discipline or it is not. If it is, which is obvious, then it should not be handled any differently due to PC sensibilities.
Chris on 28 May 2010 at 1:36 pm #
“Homosexuality is either a threat to good order and discipline or it is not.”
Israel and the Western European countries had no problems.
Matt Weber on 28 May 2010 at 3:37 pm #
Did politicians always interfere in the inner workings of the military, or is that a relatively new development?
It seems obvious to me that the military is more like a machine than a society. While you may be willing to sacrifice efficiency for various concerns like equality and fairness in greater society, it makes no sense to apply this thinking to the military, which has one purpose and can be evaluated only on how well it performs this one purpose. An egalitarian military that is unable to win a war is no use at all compared to a horrible discriminatory one that can.
Technology will hide whatever inefficiencies we institute in the military for a while. We’re still miles ahead of the competition, and as long as we can afford to spend the money we do on defense that probably won’t change. My position was always to let the military leadership decide if they wanted homosexuals (or women, or blacks, etc etc). Congress should have nothing to say on the matter.
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JPH on 28 May 2010 at 7:56 pm #
“It discriminates based on IQ (entrance tests), height, health, gender (certain fields), drug use, etc.”
That’s ridiculous. All of those things actually have a logical purpose— i.e., drugs might impair one’s ability to do work. Being too small or too tall might impair how one does work. Also, I can tell you that their entrance standards for “IQ tests” must be pretty low.
Anyway, how does being gay hurt how you do your job? If you’re, for example, an Army translator, what does being gay have to do being able to effectively do your job? Can you HONESTLY, with good conscience, say that a gay translator can’t do his or her job as well as a straight translator?
jp on 28 May 2010 at 8:30 pm #
makes sense, he wants to dismantle the military to large degree and has told the left with the savings they could finance O-Care(which would be temporary until we come to our ‘senses on freedom’).
Bede on 28 May 2010 at 11:43 pm #
To lesser degrees homosexual acts have always been tolerated (in the sense that they existed), but no healthy society would ever condone the form of gay activism and normalization that exists today. “Gay marriage,” for instance, would have been a logical contradiction for any society until recent times — at least in our ancestral Western nations.
Captainchaos on 29 May 2010 at 12:06 am #
If you guys are willing to tolerate race-mixing then why not buggery too?
RedPhillips on 29 May 2010 at 2:00 am #
BIT, I saw your comment and was planning a rather harsh rebuke, but I did not delete it. I don’t know what happened to your comment. We generally don’t delete anyone for content except occasionally CaptainC when he is in thread hijack or genocide mode. We do get a lot of spam.
Re-post what you wrote as best as you can, and I will respond.
John Gifford on 29 May 2010 at 2:06 am #
Captain,
I don’t see anyone here advocating miscegenation. Most people, of any race, find it reprehensible. (You should hear what my Japanese acquaintances have to say about it.) Only people who hate (or are ignorant of) their own ancestors would engage in it. (I remember you from TakiMag. Didn’t you get the comments section closed?)
Bourbon,
I didn’t see the comment but most paleos are anti-theocon. While (occidental) paleos recognize Christianity as part of Western identity, they are not Christian Jacobins (like the people at First Things). In fact, many paleos are quite critical of contemporary trends in Christianity, especially its hyper-universalism.
BTW, one doesn’t even have to be religious to realize that widespread homosexuality has negative consequences for the survival of an ethnic group.
RedPhillips on 29 May 2010 at 3:21 am #
JPH, where are homosexual males, for example, supposed to room? With other men? How is that different from men bunking with women? Are they supposed to bunk with the women? I suspect they women wouldn’t much care for that. Are all the gays supposed to bunk together? Again, how is that different from men bunking with women?
Open homosexuals in the military is self-evidently a problem for good order and discipline. Quit being PC.
RedPhillips on 29 May 2010 at 3:33 am #
“To lesser degrees homosexual acts have always been tolerated”
That homosexuals, whether opportunistic or exclusive, have always been with us is why, one could suppose, the God of the Bible felt the need to expressly condemned it as He condemned adultery and fornication. No healthy Christian society can countenance open homosexuality. The celebration of homosexuality as just another “alternative lifestyle” is the sign of a sick, degraded, post-Christian society.
Kirt Higdon on 29 May 2010 at 1:00 pm #
That sodomy can enhance rather than detract from military discipline and order is shown by the example of Sparta, whose military machine was based on sodomite pairs. Sparta also made its soldiers go hungry to develop their cunning by stealing food from civilians and tested their ruthlessness and skill by having them sneak off to murder helots. The objection to all of these practices is that they are immoral, not that they make the military less efficient.
I have no idea why Ron Paul voted to allow sodomites to openly serve in the military other than libertarian ideology. But I can see some possible good effects from the sodomization of the US military. Hopefully decent men will be more difficult to recruit and the armed forces will lose their prestige among the population. Since the US armed forces are used only for wars of aggression and occupation on behalf of globalist rulers and not for defense, I can’t be too unhappy at seeing their effectiveness reduced. Right now, the armed forces are like a weapon used only to commit murder, which is worshipped as an idol by most of the population. Reducing the supply of ammunition for the weapon and turning some of the worshippers from their idolatry is not a bad thing. Lest it be thought that I am arguing that the end justifies the means, I would not have voted either for or against the bill were I in Congress, but I would simply vote against any so-called defense appropriation bill.
Bede on 29 May 2010 at 1:42 pm #
Kirt,
You’re confusing Thebes and Sparta regarding the “homoseuxal” pairs. (The identity of “homosexuality” is largely a creation of the 19th century.)
Kirt Higdon on 29 May 2010 at 2:27 pm #
From what I have been able to quickly research, Sparta used the sodomite pairing in training, but not in battle. In training, youths were matched up to experienced warriors who mentored them and were also their sodomite partners. I intentionally refrained from using the term homosexual in order to emphasize behavior rather than so called identity let alone “orientation”. There is no such thing as being a homosexual apart from the activity anymore than there is such a thing as being a thief without stealing. If someone is tempted to steal but doesn’t, we do not say that he has a “larcenous orientation”. We simply call him an honest man.
Captainchaos on 29 May 2010 at 4:46 pm #
If the “theocons” were serious about stomping out homosexuality they would see to it that all of the queers were rounded up and put up against the wall. But they aren’t serious, or at least much less serious than they could be. Same with combating race-mixing.
roho on 29 May 2010 at 9:13 pm #
The military has always been the United States largest “Social Engineering Laboratory”…….Pure socialism all the way down to furnishing your toothbrush and underwear…..Even a big part of the Vietnam War was about seeing if poor white Southerners and negros bleeding all over each other might form some kind of twisted bond?…….Kind of like seeing how many Confederates would be willing to kill Philipinos and Spainish, while wearing their newly issued U.S. uniforms?……..Should openly gay soldiers be able to serve in the military?……Why not?.. The Government has screwed up every other industry in America with their Political Correctness and Multiculturalism!…Besides, negros don’t even see raping another man as an act of homosexuality, but a form of humiliation and degradation, going back to the old country.(Read the crime report details!)…..Why shouldn’t the queer have a right to be shot by the enemy, as well as friendly fire?……..By the way, wasn’t “Sugar Britches Lindsey Graham” in the Air Force?(Maybe that was where he learned to love illegal alliens?)
I support MANDATORY CONSCRPTION for all…….It get’s the A,B,C, and D students, rich or poor….Even the Jews of Harvard can give up at least two years of their life to the U.S. Military, instead of doing like Raum Emanual and serving with the IDF.(Can you even imagine a dual citizen German/American going to serve in Germany’s military instead of ours?……LOL!……The MSM would hound him into the dirt!…..Todays military is a joke, assasinating a single combattant with a $68,000.00 Hell Fire missle?…..That’s got to be expensive?
roho on 29 May 2010 at 9:15 pm #
Testing……Testing one two.
Sean Scallon on 30 May 2010 at 1:33 pm #
You can thank our current war for this one. You see war is a great means of social change in the U.S. because obviously one cannot
ask a man to fight and die for “democracy” and then deny it at home can one? With World War II and Korea came the Civil Rights movement, feminism, gay rights, all sort of movements emerged when so many were conscripted by the state. With Vietnam came the right to vote for 18-year olds. The Gulf War brought us women in combat. So now, in the middle of the GWOT, in its ninth year, we will have gays in the military. All praise to Mars, God of War, for providing “human rights” bathed in blood.
Captainchaos on 30 May 2010 at 4:22 pm #
Yup, that’s right, nothing left worth conserving. And that is only now, just wait until our dysgenic reproductive patterns and mass mongrelization catch up with us. We will have descended from the human, to the subhuman, a station occupied by the vast majority of the featherless bipeds we call “human”. It is high time to (ruthlessly) wipe the slate clean as there is nothing, really, to lose.
Weaver on 31 May 2010 at 12:41 am #
Nudity wasn’t always praised in Greece. It was introduced and at first viewed as abnormal – also viewed as abnormal by the “barbarians” allegedly too.
Of course today our decadent “classical” art is full of unnatural nudity…
Similarly pederasty is a later corruption.
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Regarding the killing of helots,
Spartans became outnumbered by noncitizens and slaves. That likely had something to do with the killing of helots.
Also, I’d be interested in the sources of these claims. Sparta had enemies.
JB on 31 May 2010 at 4:13 am #
Build a bridge, and get over it.
Matt Weber on 31 May 2010 at 1:38 pm #
More importantly I’m astonished that Christians are so joyfully willing to persecute gay people.
I’m astonished that anyone thinks banning openly gay people from the military is the equivalent of persecution.
Kirt Higdon on 31 May 2010 at 8:10 pm #
I see now that I wasn’t very clear in the point I was making in my initial post on this topic, which is that the objection to sodomy is that it is immoral, not that it impairs military efficiency, which it may or may not do. Seen in this light, the main objection to allowing sodomites to openly serve in the armed forces is that they will corrupt some of the non-sodomites, whether or not they improve or degrade their military efficiency. In this light, it matters not in the least whether Spartan military trainees murdered helots to improve their skills as soldiers or because they thought there were too many helots. For either or both reasons, the practice was immoral. Lots of material on Spartan military training can be found by googling that term or the term agoge. There is disagreement as to the extent of sodomite practices in the Spartan military.
And how did the subject of the Greek attitude toward nudity come up? Notwithstanding many ancient paintings which depict Greek warriors nude except for helmet and shield, no one claims that the Spartans or any other ancient Greeks fought nude – in fact, they were heavily armored. Whatever may have been the attitude of very early Greeks toward nudity, certainly they were very comfortable with it by the classical, let alone the Hellenistic period, as innumerable paintings and statues indicate. The familiar word gymnasium comes from the Greek term for exercising naked. Modern decadence cannot be blamed for depiciting the ancient Greeks as they dipicted themselve, and besides there is nothing really intrinsically wrong with nudity in art.
Weaver on 04 Jun 2010 at 8:42 pm #
Mr. Higdon,
I meant nudity and pederasty both developed as a later corruption – for the former I’ll cite my source. They’re unnatural. Civilisations have a tendency to grow corrupt from decadence – these 2 qualities I suspect are such elements.
I’m doubtful pederasty gives military advantage. The bias of our day is that all things sodomite are wonderful, so I’m wary of unfounded claims.
Homosexuality does offer one societal advantage: population control. I think Aristotle mentioned it being used to control an island population. I’m no expert, but I can cite my source. I’ll find it shortly.
nino Baldino on 08 Jun 2010 at 3:52 am #
IF a homosexual can live in the same barracks as others then why cant hetrosexuals have women in the same barracks..what fun…off to the latrine we go..showers etc…whats fair is fair. Ron Paul justs shows his true colors now and then and is a coward . He knows that such a program is devastating to any military discipline and his vote is devastating to his son now also running. guess this was the plan after all..like the establishment ordering good ole Pat Robertson to endores Guiliani for pres…the inmates are running the asylum….
rob on 12 Jun 2010 at 5:52 am #
Why is it so obvious that homosexuality is a threat to the good order of the military? Indeed, homosexuals have been serving in the military for ages. The Navy is even infamous for it. Only a small fraction ever get caught.
Ron Paul’s Latest Gaffes | From The Provinces on 04 Dec 2010 at 3:19 am #
[...] Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell – Earlier this year, Ron Paul voted to repeal the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy. If he runs again for president, Paul is now saddled [...]
Joe on 17 Dec 2010 at 2:09 am #
True, since when do members of the military have rights?
RedPhillips on 17 Dec 2010 at 4:55 am #
People in the military have rights. The issue is does everyone have a right to be in the military? Do people with asthma have a right to be in the military? People with seizures?
Weaver on 17 Dec 2010 at 4:02 pm #
Plato:
Plato. Republic. Book 5.
J on 19 Dec 2010 at 2:10 am #
The fagolas can serve. I sure as hell do not want to put my life on the line for these stupid wars. If the homos want to risk their lives for the military industrial complex then be my guest