Posted under Classical Texts & Culture War & History
I’m overlooking Plutarch (Boeotia c. 46 – c. 120 AD) who lived much later than Xenophon (Athens c. 430 – c. 350 BC).
Xenophon writes in Constitution of the Lacedaimonians:
I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favours. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys.
The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy’s soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy’s outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.
In Xenophon’s Symposium, Socrates (who was attracted to young boys though not a Spartan) is recorded by Xenophon as saying:
In contrast to this, the Lacedaemonians, who hold that if a person so much as feels a carnal concupiscence he will never come to any good end, cause the objects of their love to be so consummately brave that even when arrayed with foreigners and even when not stationed in the same line with their lovers they just as surely feel ashamed to desert their comrades.
This sounds like strong, nonsexual friendship.
-
Aristotle writes in Book 2 of Politics:
So that the inevitable result is that in a state thus constituted wealth is held in honor, especially if it is the case that the people are under the sway of their women, as most of the military and warlike races are,
…
For it appears that the original teller of the legend had good reason for uniting Ares with Aphrodite, for all men of martial spirit appear to be attracted to the companionship either of male associates or of women. Hence this characteristic existed among the Spartans, and in the time of their empire many things were controlled by the women;
Though an Athenian, Xenophon fought under the Spartan king and sent his two sons to be educated by Sparta.
Weaver on 05 Jan 2011 at 8:16 pm #
The following is regarding an earlier related discussion. I’d argued the following makes nudity appear unnatural to the Greeks.:
Plato. Republic. Book 5.:
Bede on 05 Jan 2011 at 9:50 pm #
No modern-day notion of “homosexuallity” existed until the 19th century. People might have previously engaged in homosexual acts, but the identity is fairly new.
The dynamics of Greek and Roman homosexual acts were complex. While it at times might be acceptable to be the active partner, it was often looked down upon to be the passive partner (because it made one like a slave or woman). Both Greek and Roman writers often make fun of passive homosexuals.
Those about whose lives we know much (Cicero, Caeser, Augustus, etc.) seemed to be heterosexual. There was a rumor Caesar, a notorious womanizer, had sex with a man when he was younger, but it was a rumor circulated by his enemies and probably not true.
You should check out Sir Kenneth Dover’s _Greek Homosexuality_.
It’s not to say that homosexuality existed or not existed — what did exist was quite different from what he have today. And the Greeks and Romans never in a million years would have dreamed of anything like “gay marriage” because they recognized the purpose of marriage to be procreation.
Weaver on 05 Jan 2011 at 10:36 pm #
Thanks. I don’t see it at Amazon, but I’ll seek out a copy.
I know the Sacred Band of Thebes (among others) could be used as a counter example against me reg. Greek military and homo sex.
However, I’m also specifically interested in defending the image of Sparta which at least going by Xenophon doesn’t appear to have tolerated sex between males. Sparta is the jewel of Greece, and the movie 300 has captivated American minds. I hate to see its name sullied or used to promote this behavior.
Going by the encyclopedia I linked to: Plutarch was from Boeotia which had been much more lenient during Xenophon’s time, and Plutarch only seems to have visited Sparta, not fought among them like Xenophon. And again these two were several hundred years apart – things change.
-
I suppose my title should have been, “Did the Spartans Really Tolerate Sex Between Males?”
RedPhillips on 06 Jan 2011 at 12:17 am #
While there is not necessarily a moral distinction, there is a practicle distinction between opportunistic homosexual behavior because that is all (or primarily) that is available, such as in prison or the military, and exclusive homosexuality. Exclusive homosexuality, meaning the person’s primary or exclusive sexual interest is toward the same sex, may well have always existed, but its emergence as an “identity” is modern.
Bede on 06 Jan 2011 at 1:37 am #
Regarding the cause of homosexual behavior, Gregory Cochran, co-author of the brilliant 10,000 Year Explosion, has a theory:
http://vdare.com/sailer/gay_gene.htm
Here’s the link for Dover’s book.
Weaver on 06 Jan 2011 at 2:05 am #
Thanks. D’oh it was under “K. J.” I’d checked the full name category only.
James on 06 Jan 2011 at 5:38 am #
The Ancient Spartans were not homosexuals. This is a modern myth. Sparta was a very unique place in the Greek world, and comparisons to the rest of Greece at the time may not be particularly useful. This is not to say that other Greeks were homosexual either. It’s not true either, but there was diversity within the Greek world with regard to sexual mores, as with other aspects of culture. Different thought they were, the Spartans were still thoroughly Greek. When a Spartan male youth was old enough to begin their 13 year long training to become a Spartan soldier (a hoplite) and ultimately a citizen, they were paired with an older partner, a hoplite solder who had already successful completed their training. This was, I think, around the age of eight. This was to become the most important relationship in the lives of both partners. The older partner served as a mentor to the younger, encouraging them in their training. The two would also fight side by side in the Spartan phalanx in battle, the older providing an example of skill and courage the younger sought to emulate while the younger strive to earn the respect of the other partner. It was expected that this relationship would have a sexual aspect, but it was certainly not what we today would consider homosexual or pedophilia. First, the sex probably took place when the youth was in puberty and becoming aware of themselves sexually and the sex would have occurred in the context of simply learning the physical mechanics of sex. Second, it was inter-femoral sex, ie. “between the legs.” The Ancient Greeks actually regarded anal sex as; well, nasty, for obvious reasons. The Greeks, like the Romans, were fanatical about personal hygene. Someone on the receiving end of anal sex would have been viewed as dishonorable (a slave, for example) and this was not something that the Spartans would have wanted to instill in their future warriors. In fact, most sex discussed in the ancient world (Greeks and Romans) between men and boys was inter-femoral, although not all. Third, when the time came, the role of the older was to find a wife for the younger partner. Obviously, this is not modern homosexuality but something very unique and peculiar to Spartan society in Ancient Greece and it served to heighten the bond between two men who would fight together in the heat of battle. In fact, it symbolizes the degree to which the Ancient Greeks so elevated the masculine over the feminine that it took a man to instruct a man in every area of life. The masculine virtues of reason, courage and fortitude were celebrated as supreme and the feminine vices of emotion, frightfulness and sensuality were shunned. Far from being modern, effeminate homosexuals, the Ancient Greeks, were the ultimate “manly” men, almost to the point of misogyny.
RonL on 06 Jan 2011 at 5:49 am #
Spartan men lived together after the age of 7. They formed very close bonds for comfort. The had women dress like men and cut their hair to be “taken” on their wedding night.
Speaks for itself.
Weaver on 06 Jan 2011 at 9:51 am #
Ron & James,
Respectfully, I believe you’re both wrong in taking Plutarch’s side. Either one of the two Greeks is lying, or Sparta changed over time.
Xenophon would have known much better than Plutarch who only seems to have visited Sparta. Xenophon sent his own 2 children to be trained by the Spartans, he fought under Sparta, and he served as a representative of Sparta. Xenophon revered Sparta’s system too – revering it over his own Athenian.
Xenophon specifically contradicts the claims you two make. The quotes in the original post are all that’s relevant to go on by him, that I’m aware of. I’ve read most of his works at one time or another.
James on 06 Jan 2011 at 8:33 pm #
I’ll have to do some more intense investigation on this, but what I said above comes from the best sources I have had access to. Let’s all do some more research and revisit the topic at a later time. Have you looked at any secondary works, perhaps some which looks at the archeology? This is an interesting and worthwhile question.
Weaver on 06 Jan 2011 at 10:32 pm #
I’ve only read the primary sources – possibly not all of them.
Bede, however, has a more complete classical education.
-
What I was planning on doing is reading the book Bede recommended and then tracing back to the primary sources. Since many have tread this path, pick a good expert and follow the path he’s already paved.
There’s only so much leisure time though, and there are a great many potent projects to fill it with.
-
I’ll post back after reading Bede’s book. You might another project or choose this one. If this turns out to be a mistake though, I’d hate to have wasted your time.
roho on 07 Jan 2011 at 7:07 pm #
Back in the seventies-eighties, when the NFL was not only the subject of many books and movies like “North Dallas Forty”, I read an article declaring professional football as having the highest percentage of homosexual/bisexuals of any occupation. Body Building ran a close second. It is often said that within the African Tribal wars of even today, raping the enemy is as comon as killing them, and the dominant rapist soldier feels empowered over the act of violent rape.
Today, noone seems more obsessed with homosexuality/pedaphilia/organ merchandising, than the American Jewish Citizen……..Hollywood, controled by jews confirms this daily.
andrew on 04 Dec 2011 at 12:40 am #
the Spartans did not have institutionalized homasexuality. those who mention such practices live much later than classical Sparta. the historians of classical Greece deny the Spartan had institutionalized homosexuality. this propaganda came about during the 19th century by westerners with personal agendas. I have no problem with such practices but if your lying about such things it’s clearly malicious. as for the head shaving custom it had absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. they shaved the females head so that the more masculine appearance would help contribute to producing healthy children. it’s basically a form of eugenics. the propaganda and lies are pathetic. I cannot understand why westerners seem obsessed with ancient Greece yet distort the truth to push their agendas. also keep in mind that over 90% of documentation about Sparta comes from Athens their biggest enemy, and I can assure you their accounts are heavily bias. hypo tracy about dismissing accounts they don’t agree with yet acknowledged those accounts that do.
andrew on 24 Dec 2011 at 10:37 pm #
ridiculous crap spread by 19th century aristocrats. facts are facts they didn’t do such things it’s even against their laws. brotherly love is comradery today period. and womens head were shaved because they believed by making her look masculine it would increase the likely hood of conceiving a strong healthy child. that’s a type of eugenic philosophy not homosexual. only Plutarch speaks of homosexuals in Sparta. all historians most of which are constantly used as a viable source are suddenly lying. they claim you can’t judge through today’s eyes (no concept of homophobia) but name xenaphone is a homophobe they kick themselves in the teeth when they lie
Gabriel on 04 Jan 2012 at 9:28 pm #
There was sexual intimacy between male Spartans back in the day; which would be called homosexuality… However it was not done the way we think and look at homosexuality today.
In today’s society many homosexuals try to emulate heterosexual couples, in the sense of making one of the guys in the homosexual relationship play or emulate the female in some form- as in one of the guys in the relationship being more passive, or submissive in the bedroom- the one who is penetrated. I also very often hear coupled men refer to the other as their “boyfriend” or “husband”. There’s a lot of feminization within the gay community today.
This was not seen as the ideal relationship between two men in the ancient world, ESPECIALLY among warriors. Though strong love, affection, fidelity, and intimacy was all well and good, even encouraged; the two men in such a relationship viewed each other as equals, and being that the ideal man was one without holes- meaning he was NOT to be penetrated, when it came down to sex between these two men- it consisted of what we now call “frot”- I don’t exactly remember the Greek word for it, but it translated into “rubbing of the genitals”.
One guy would be on top of the other, or they’d be standing up (there’s a lot of pottery and frescoes that show it), bottom line face to face- embraced, with their manhood rubbing together until both have an orgasm together. There is also a certain kind of bond that is strengthened between the two men, that does not and could not happen or exist if they treated the relationship, the way many gay men, and the media today looks at male/male homosexual relationships.
Anal sex was seen as something dirty, shameful, disgraceful, and unmanly. Was it done? Yes there was anal sex in the ancient world, even though it was illegal. There were also men who enjoyed messing about with little boys- as there were perverted and depraved people back then as there are today. The Spartans did not like these practices done by the Athenians (not all Athenians), and so they often made fun of the Athenians calling them “boy lovers” or “lovers of boys”
Anal sex among the warrior/soldier/fighter classes, was used as a humiliation tool. Some cultures when they defeated an enemy would eat them; with the humiliation behind it-the fact that you’ll turn your enemy into excrement. In other cultures the defeated man would be raped by the victorious man, or men. With the humiliation behind that- the fact that his masculinity, manhood, warrior-hood was being stripped from him- as he was being penetrated like a female, or slave boy- and submitting to the masculinity and manhood of the other man or men.
A man can be beaten down, but can and will get back up and try again- and maybe be victorious. However if he is defeated in combat, and then forced to submit to another man sexually- that crushes his spirit-which can make him lose the will to fight.
There are many homosexual men today, who treat and view male/male relationships the same as the Spartans, and other warrior cultures of the ancient world- and while they are not ashamed of having attraction physically and emotionally towards other men- completely detest and keep away from modern day gay culture- because they find it degrading, and feminizing.
andrew on 02 Feb 2012 at 1:43 pm #
again it was against their laws and considering their belief in being law abiding you cannot have it both ways. further more the idea that men didn’t get to see women or their wives is bull. men and women exercised together and even though yu were expected to live in the barracks you were also supposed to sneak out and go see your wife. further more Sparta promoted males and females marrying and having children younger than other Greeks. and by the way adult men in a romantic relationship was completely frowned upon just like stated above cuz one would have to play the part of the woman and that would disgrace you
Ken A on 05 Jun 2012 at 1:41 am #
There are some fantastic comments on this post. I came here to prove to my wife that women in Sparta dressed as men on their wedding night in order for the Spartan men (who were gay) to have sex with them. I heard this somewhere, but after reading this page I now think that it’s ridiculous. Hopefully more people will read this, and this lie can stop.
Plutarch reader on 12 Jul 2012 at 7:27 am #
It seems that someone was trying to use Plutarch writings to claim that the Spartans were gay, this is absolute nonsense. Plutarch goes into depth about the life of Lycurgus the (Mythical?) founder of Sparta and this writing makes it clear that the spartan way of life is antithetical to decadence and homosexuality. Modern people assume that because spartan warriors did not marry until they were older that they must have had homosexual relationships, this is silly. When their training began spartan youths were fed very little just enough to maintain their bodies. they were also required to engage in near constant gymnastics (exercise). These habits were carried over into adulthood Plutarch tells us that the Spartans all ate the same food which consisted mostly of barley bread, weak wine, a little cheese and a small amount of dried figs. They also hated idleness and though they didn’t have trades they spent almost all of their free time on the exercise fields. It was considered a dishonor to spend time lying about and it was a shame for a young man to go buy food at the market. This kind of lifestyle is perfectly suited to sexual abstinence as the bland food moderate alcohol intake and constant exercise served to diminish their sexual needs. Yes spartan men of fighting age did live in the barracks and were officially discouraged from the company of women but Plutarch remarks that the older men would often encourage the younger ones to sneak off in the night to visit their wives and it was no shame to do so. Everything about the spartan training and lifestyle was intended to make men temperate in body and mind.
Plutarch reader on 12 Jul 2012 at 8:00 am #
People often cite Plutarch’s description of the “honeymoon” between a spartan and his wife as proof of spartan gayness. Plutarch describes a ceremony in which the new bride is dragged to the home of the young soldier her head is shaved, she is dressed in boys clothing and locked in a dark room. Plutarch tells us this is a reenactment of a legend in which some mythical Lacadaemonian guy stole his wife and hid her in his house dressed as a boy to conceal her true identity. There were i think two main reasons for this tradition. First lacadaemonian women were notoriously strong and independent and the spartan men had practically no contact with women since they were seperated from their mothers at a young age. very likely they were somewhat frightened of girls and had no idea how to approach a woman. The darkness and imprisonment might have helped deal with some of the awkwardness. Second it is an expression of the Spartans somewhat epicurean ideal of pleasure. It is consistent with their philosophy of simplicity. If the youth learns to love his wife when she is bald, Reluctant and dressed like a boy how much more lovely will she seem when she is attractive, feminine, and willing.
ModernGreek on 12 Sep 2012 at 12:25 pm #
Well the whole misconception is derived from translation actually.
Our ancestors used a lot the word Erotas (love) and Erastis (lover) to describe the pure love or passion for a thing, idea or a person.
The male bonding/friendship, especially among soldiers is nowadays considered as homosexuality even though myriads of texts prove that homosexuality was not acceptable and prevented a person from taking a public office etc.
Furthermore, the work Kynedos (Dog’s shame) was used to describe those who had no shame and were performing such acts.
Unfortunately, in our modern gay-friendly environment we are forced to accept such easy interpretations lover=sexual lover in order to be politically correct and justify the modern day accepted gayness…
PS My argument is not based on my ethnicity, like I’m ashamed for my ancestors. It is a historical fact. Like Macedonia being a Greek kingdom and not a Slav kingdom:)